PCLinuxOS nice but:

I'm still mad 'em for dropping support for my wireless adapter (Belkin using an rt2570 chipset).

It works in 0.92. But, it doesn't work in 0.93 (at least not with the drivers on the CD), and it still doesn't work in 2007 test 4.

If it works in Final without jumping through hoops (downloading drivers from somewhere and installing them), I may forgive 'em (although I won't forget anytime soon). I hate it when a distro orphans hardware (or requires you do have a lot of Linux knowledge to download and install a driver). That's the kind of thing that gives operating systems a bad name.

Jim C.

I couldn't get Parallels Workstation installed due to a dependancy problem ... no problem in Mepis. I tried to get help and run into 'exterm' ... they should get rid of that jerk!

Wayne

Actually, I've found the forum members there to be very friendly, despite my having an "attitude" a couple of times when visiting there.

If I were a moderator there, I probably would have banned someone like me by now. lol

Tex seems to be a pretty good guy also from the posts I've seen him make.

Any distro is going to have pros and cons, and you're going to find a variety of personalities in any forum.

I still haven't found a distro that like better than MEPIS overall, though (despite a few flaws).

I have been downloading and testing a lot of new distros lately (and have several I've downloaded but haven't tried yet). All of them tend to fall short in one area or another. Pros and cons.

What I'd like is a version of SimplyMEPIS using much newer software (for example, able to work with the newer 7.04 Ubuntu Feisty repositories versus the older 6.06 Dapper repositories), with hardware support as good or better than Ubuntu, too. Even the stuff in Ubuntu 6.10 is too out of date for some stuff.

Unfortunately, with most Linux distros, if you want the latest and greatest software, that usually means upgrading to the latest and greatest version of a Linux distro (and even then, it's likely to be behind in software versions for some stuff you want).

Jim C.

Hey Jim: Warren is now working on the next Mepis according to his last podcast. Things are getting really exciting in the Linux world with Beryl and Compiz back together and KDE4 coming out later this year. I sent my daughter a computer which l pre-installed with Mepis 6.5.00 ... single boot . And then there is DELL starting to offer Ubuntu on certain systems ... the push is on ... Mepis would have been a better pick, but, oh well!

Wayne

Why? Have you been complaining about the theme?

--
Check out MEPIS Wiki: www.mepis.org/docs

Nah... I like their theme. Unlike SimplyMEPIS 6.5, I can actually read the icon text OK in PCLinuxOS 2007. The darker blue wallpaper helps it to stand out, versus being smeared into a lighter wallpaper.

Yea, I know. All I have to do is change it (and I already have it darker in the newer 6.0-4 beta and 6.5 releases I've installed).

The new MEPIS theme is actually growing on me some. I just could not see living with that Wallpaper color though.

But, I have complained about my wireless adapter being dropped from PCLinuxOS 0.93 (and still not working in 2007 Test 4).

It worked just fine in 0.92. They deliberately dropped it from the Live CD in the the 0.93 versions.

Apparently, this was done because Belkin changed the chipset in the same model of adapter and they had to make a decision which one to support. Rather than deciding to keep the existing working, they went with the new one (leaving those of us with this particular Belkin adapter using an rt2570 chipset without a solution that worked from a 0.93 Live CD.

I argued against this before 0.93 went final to no avail (keep what's working, working, versus orphaning it because of a new one). So, yea, I was ticked off about it and made sure everyone knew it.

I do have a habit of doing that from time to time. I know those guys have to make tough decisions. But, to orphan an adapter that was working was just not the right thing to do in my opinion.

Now, they did come out with a solution that involved downloading a different package for it (removing one of the existing drivers and replacing it) in 0.93. But, if your only connection is wireless, that doesn't help if you're trying to do a new install from a Live CD.

Now that this is *still* not resolved in 2007 Test 4 (which is apparently the last test release before they go final), I'm still a little ticked, and so I let them know that again. lol

Now, with 2007 Test 4, there is a solution found by some other users. Apparently, you can download and compile the rt2570 driver from this page and it will work in 2007 Test 4 (according to one user there):

http://rt2x00.serialmonkey.com/wiki/index.php/Downloads

So, I may give that a try (download it ahead of time so that I can compile it after a test install). I actually meant to try it last week. But, I haven't gotten around to it (I've been testing other distros instead), and I would rather that it was already in and working in the distro (as it was in 0.92).

I just don't understand a decision to orphan an adapter that was working just fine, even if a newer chipset was being used by the manufacturer now. That's just a bad way to approach things from my perspective.

No distro is perfect. But, some are a bit better than others. For example, Ubuntu seems to consistently work OK with my graphics, monitor, wireless, etc., between versions (6.06 works fine, 6.10 works fine, 7.04 works fine).

I'm actually typing this post from an Ubuntu live cd now.

With some other distros (including SimplyMEPIS), I have to jump through hoops trying to get everything like that setup (monitor not detected properly, wireless more difficult to configure, etc.).

Heck, SimplyMEPIS is one of the few distros around that doesn't seem to detect my monitor correctly (most recognize it as a "plug and play", setting the correct vertical and horizontal freq ranges, and some even report the manufacturer and model (distros like Knoppix and Kanotix started doing that a *long* time ago), and Ubuntu works with it fine as a "plug and play". With MEPIS, I use the X Windows Assistant and set it up manually to get it right and it's monitor database seems to be very dated.

I've seen similar graphics/monitor related issues on friends' hardware too (Ubuntu works fine, MEPIS doesn't, even though MEPIS is using the same repositories). Heck, at one point, I just started loading Ubuntu first, just to copy the xorg.conf file from it when installing SimplyMEPIS, since it usually works with most hardware I try it on.

But, I really like the SimplyMEPIS KDE menu layout, install programs and more. I also like it that Warren puts in more in the way of plugins by default (and has easy access to more in the repos). I also like the font selection used for the menus, being able to use the assistants from Live CD to recover if you mess up something and more.

So, I keep using it, despite it's "quirks" with my hardware.

I just wish it was using newer software repositories, for example, Feisty (which is using more current stuff, although some of it is still out of date).

I'm still trying to get a better understanding of why there needs to be so darn many dependency issues with Linux.

If you want newer versions of some software, you have to upgrade the distros with most to get it, unless you want to jump through hoops trying to compile stuff yourself (and a newbie isn't going to want to do that). With Windows, you download a new driver or application. With Linux, you try to find a newer distro that has what you need. Grrrrrrr

Now, I do like it that Warren has updated some software himself, outside of the Ubuntu repositories. For example, HPLIP was updated during the 6.5 development cycle and Ubuntu 6.06LTS repositories are way behind. That means you can actually use newer printers with it. lol

I can remember switching my wife from MEPIS (3.3) back to Windows at one point, just because of printer issues (we had to buy a new printer) that finally got resolved during the 3.4.x development cycle.

You should not need to compile software or change your Linux distro when you get new printer, especially if the printer manufacturer has open source drivers available for it.

Now, I do like Linux (and SimplyMEPIS). But, it's a love/hate relationship.

The entire Linux development model seems to be badly flawed on how software updates are handled, because there are just too many dependencies involved with some updates.

I just don't understand why it would be approached that way. Sure, shared libraries can save some space and resources.

But, they create dependency nightmares. Now, I have seen the same thing in Windows environments, too. "DLL Hell" used to be a common term when software vendors were stupid enough not to link in the needed libraries and relied on something in a system. But, you don't see the depth of dependency issues with Windows that you do with Linux when updating most software.

In most cases, a Windows user can quickly install new versions of software, hardware drivers, etc. when needed.

With Linux, you may need to upgrade your operating system to accomplish the same thing unless you want a broken system, or you want to work through the issues, compiling the stuff yourself.

For a long time, I kept a partition with Kanotix on my system, just to be able to get newer stuff from Debian. But, Etch, and even Experimental seems to be pretty darn out of date at times, and without exception, every time I tried to upgrade all packages with Kanotix (reload, mark all upgrades, apply), I ended up with a broken system.

Another thing that made it somewhat attractive was Klik (which you can apparently install in a number of other distros now, too). The concept is apparently that the applications are self contained (which is the way I think the development cycle *should* work in Linux, to try and get around the dependency issues you see).

But, my experience with it is that the downloaded software only worked about 25% of the time (if you were lucky). So, not all of the "kinks" have been worked out yet (or, they were not the last time I tried using it from Kanotix). lol

I know... there is no perfect solution.

But, with the amount of people involved in developing and maintaining Linux distros, there really needs to be some kind of movement for more cooperation between them.

It's nuts for the same work to be done hundreds of times (for each separate distro), working through the same types of dependency issues and more. If more of those resources were pooled, it seems to me that Linux would be moving along much faster.

I actually voted for using the Ubuntu repositories when Warren did a poll a while back (trying to decide if he wanted to switch to their repositories).

I voted that way because Ubuntu was working OK with my printer, monitor, and more at the time. So, I figured that they were a better bet for the long run. But, Warren still went his own way on some of the hardware detection and configuration. So, moving to Ubuntu didn't solve all of the quirks.

But, at the time, I assumed that "Long Term Support" meant that they would continue to update software in the repositories, too. Well.. let's just say that I'm not thrilled with their history of backporting new software to 6.06 LTS. lol

Want new software? Upgrade your distro to a new version. Grrrrr

OK -- enough venting. There is no good Linux solution for us average mortals that don't want to learn every nuance of how Linux works and compile the software ourselves, if you really want the latest and greatest software (or hardware for that matter, since you have driver issues involved).

There really should be a better solution though, as much effort as there is being put into Linux (that effort is just fragmented too much, between too many Linux distros). lol

P.S.

I guess it is pretty amazing that "smaller shop" developers like Texstar and Warren are able to put out distros that are better in many ways that the much larger ones that have more resources.

So, I do appreciate their efforts (despite my gripes).

Jim C.

I much prefer their theme, too. But I cannot get even their LiveCD to mount with the old desktop system I bought specifically for experimentation. It drops me to a "limited shell".

Sorry kernel carvers, but I decided in the late 1990's that I don't like programming or anything that even looks like it. I've pretty much forgotten how to even write .bat files and don't miss the skill set one whit. If I wanted to be within a mile of a non-"idiot", command line installation I would at least be running Gentoo if not rolling my own distro from source, (I could certainly tailor one specifically to the exact hardware I'm using and maximize performance and minimize size for beyond what any other distro could do). I was so pleased with MEPIS from the beginning because I had only been waiting for a "baby" distro since 1993 when I first heard about a "Unix" that the engineering-student cousin of my best friend had on his home PC.

Aside from that, I am auditioning candidates for a computer my Aunt and Uncle 1500 miles away don't yet know they're getting. They are in their 70's. He has used Windows at work and she is "scared of computers" entirely. The family members close to them are Windows users, at best. Anything other than a graphical installation is an absolute non-starter.

I am afraid that the years of smarter-than-thou condescension, fractious infighting, "no thanks,we don't need applications just another thousand varied distros of the same OS" may have left Linux in an permanently untenable position. I know that sounds awfully glum in the face of the improving popularity of Ubuntu and MEPIS. But with the advent of Desktop BSD/PC BSD and OpenSolaris I'm just not certain what the future holds. If Larry Ellison ran Sun, we'd probably already be overrun by OpenSolaris.

I'll admit that I have no particular loyalty to Linux. The older I get the less I care about any of it. I want stuff that works, (that lets M$ out), I want to be treated at least as well as a valued customer rather than an arch enemy, (Sorry, Bill, you lose on that score too, don't you?). I'm interested in an OS that runs the applications that I want to use, (so much for Apple). I don't like too small a corral of proprietary limitations, (oops, there goes Apple again), and I prefer the open source model for the continuity of availability and development that it allows. I'm somewhat concerned with the claims that Ubuntu is just inexplicably slow. I like some of the claims made for Solaris/OpenSolaris; but I haven't looked into it enough to find out if it runs more than Open/Sun Office and server aps. I find myself wishing that Desktop BSD was based upon OpenBSD because even though I have no idea how the increased availability of encryption would benefit me I'd like whatever difference there is to be in my favor. (Is there enough difference to make any difference?)

Honestly, if Linux were to become a serious challenge holding, say, something on the order of 40% of all the world's desktop(/laptops)tomorrow - at this point I'd probably hope that my needs could be met with a some desktop-oriented flavor of BSD simply because the more systems that operate Linux the more it becomes a target for crackers. They say that, "security comes in numbers". That is true often enough. But it also true that "bunching up" makes inviting targets. If BSD ran the aps I needed and was just enough different from Winbloze, Mac OS-whatever and Linux . . . well, so much the better.

As for now, my primary interest is in MEPIS. It's (generally) user-friendly and it's not from Microsoft. And in spite of what shills for Redmond say the well-earned hatred for all things Microsoft that they have spent more than twenty pain-filled years planting, fertilizing and nurturing inside me is a perfectly legitimate reason to be looking for something, almost anything, other than Microsoft. If their stuff is so great, why do so many people hate them for it?