Debian 4.0 Etch

Helpful, appreciative comments such as yours make the world seem brighter, so do come again to spread more joy.

Oh, and that next time? Don't drop your load in our yard.

Although Debian 4.0 IS kind of nice, one does need a couple of hours of additional work in order to get the level of useability ("it just works") that we enjoy in Mepis - out of the box.

Did I mention that KDE isn't even installed as login-option on (std.) Debian 4.0?
And that Kwikdiskl/Kdiskfree (after you install them) will show ONLY your / and /home partitions (+cdroms+floppydrive), meaning that you need to MANUALLY mount other partitions when needed?

It's nice, but it's not 'it just works'.

Regards, Ko

Ko Bros

and if you want support for several wireless card drivers or winmodems, good luck!

Debian is a great project, and etch has improved a lot, so they say. Though I have tried to install via netinstall in a virtual machine, and ended up with a useless install that did not even have a properly configured X server. My bad, probably, but not very friendly....

What Debian is sorely missing is a guy (M/F) that knows how to get a project going to create a true Debian desktop installer.

Newbie or not Newbie, there's always a question

"Although Debian 4.0 IS kind of nice, one does need a couple of hours of additional work in order to get the level of useability ("it just works") that we enjoy in Mepis - out of the box."

I don't know. I spent one minute adding the debian-multimedia repository and then a five minutes fetching the codecs, mplayer, lame, realplayer, and java. Flash installed from within Iceweasel (Firefox). It wasn't hard or time consuming.

True, I don't get all the hardware support that Warren adds to the kernel, but since I can do everything I need to do with the stock Debian kernel, the system just flies by comparison. The stock Debian kernel and KDE are super quick on my old hardware.

BTW, Debian Etch contains a newer kernel, newer HP printer drivers, newer k3b, newer Firefox and Thunderbird, newer OpenOffice, newer KDE, etc. than Mepis 6.5. What am I missing?

Plus, I get an fstab built correctly from installation and do not have to worry about some silly automount script that generated multiple cdrom devices on my single cdrom system (yes, I have tried the updates and the 6.5.0.2 release - same problems). I also have my HP mulifunction printer/scanner working from the first minute with newer HP drivers and the HP toolbox. Mepis would print but not scan with the older drivers. Finally, the screen saver works perfectly in Debian (under Mepis the screen saver either never starts, or starts and then returns to the desktop 10 minutes later, never to start again).

As for the Debian installer, the text-based installer is a model of efficiency and elegance. It gives the user complete control over installation and does not get hung up on resource-deprived systems.

ezsit
So enjoy your debian etch system. No-one is forcing you to use Mepis or any 'derivative'. Why be so nasty?

If you are a real enthusiast for debian I suggest trying sidux. Bleeding edge debian Sid plus extras.

Oh and by the way, I use Mepis 3.4.3 that is fully dist-upgraded through the debian sid repos. Makes your debian etch seem a bit of a wimp really.

Added: Oh and how long did it take you to install debian etch? When I did a net-install it tokk a lot longer than a Mepis install, and I mean a lot longer. Mepis 3.4.3 installed in less than 10 minutes, Mepis 6.5 in about 8 minutes, sidux in about 8 minutes, debian net-install took well over an hour for a basic install on my box. (no KDE)

Also have fun with the default etch kernal and its limitations..............

anticapitalista

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

I was not nasty at all. My statement regarding why anybody would use a derivative as opposed to the original was a genuine reaction. Mepis takes Ubuntu sources and adds customizations. Ubuntu takes Debian sources and adds customizations. Each layer of customizations adds more complexity and greater chance for the introduction of odd or peculiar quirks not found in the original.

I am not so much an enthusiast for Debian as an enthusiast of stable systems that don't need babysitting or constant worrying about wether an update will break the system. Ubuntu updates sometimes have left me with a more unstable system than prior to updating. Mepis 6.5 was very close to nirvana except for the problems with older HP drivers, non-functional screensavers, and fstab and automount wierdness.

I really don't mind someone calling Debian Etch a wimp. If that makes you feel better, vent, by all means. I'm not entering my computer in any marathons, heck, it's only a 2.0ghz Celeron w/512mb ram and a 64mb cheapo nvidia card. Nothing to brag about here. I just want a system that runs well, is stable, has some bells and whistles, and will be supported for more than a year.

I downloaded the etch kde cd1 (645 mb) and the entire installation took under one hour, that includes adding the multimedia codecs, java, realplayer, mplayer, lame, flash, and setting up the printer/scanner. Considering that I don't install all that often, one hour is perfectly acceptable. Now, if I had to reinstall the system frequently, this might be a issue, but most people should not need to reinstall often.

1. Ok maybe your comment about why someone would use/not use a derivative was a genuine reaction, but it sure didn't come across that way in your first post.

2. The customisation of debian by other distros such as Mepis/Ubuntu/Sidux MAY make the original better in lots of ways ie stability, improvements in the kernel, hardware detection. Customisation is not necessarily a bad thing. It may not have worked for your box, but it might work better on others.

3. Upgrading Mepis, I have found, and you seem to accept, unlike Ubuntu, is almost there in your case and in mine totally there. However, my debian net-install had a few (minor) problems connected with the kernel, until I upgraded it to the unstable branch.

4. Your box is similar to mine. I have 512 RAM, CPU 2000 AMD and a cheapo nvidia card too. Mepis 3.4.3, sidux, debian net-install(sid upgraded), Mepis 6.5 (my remastered version) all work well, has all the bells and whistles I need and is stable.

As I tried to point out in my earlier post, use what you like. ALL distros have their pros and cons. Let's try to make the cons less than the pros .............in whatever distro we may choose.

anticapitalista

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

Well, if you prefer Debian you are free to use it, there's not need even to visit this page, if you want to question our reasons to use MEPIS then be prepared that we don't necessarily have the same needs/requirements as you do, for example:
1. I haven't seen an official Debian Live CD, and the one that I've seen it was a joke if you compare it with MEPIS
2. Related to Live CD, MEPIS has OnTheGo feature, some people need that, since Debian is not even a live CD this can't even be discussed.
3. I was recently installed Debian Sid just to have fun, I discovered that installing NVIDIA drivers is impossible without some hacking that I personally am not able to do, see the log: FATAL: modpost: GPL-incompatible module nvidia.ko uses GPL-only symbol 'paravirt_ops'" It looks like GPL fundamentalists are winning the fight...
4. MEPIS can be installed on USB with two clicks. It runs from USB flashdrive very nicely, can I install Debian on USB flashdrive with 2 clicks?
5. For me 15 minutes install (5 minutes from USB drive) is important, I understand that you can spend 1 hour installing a system but don't question why _I_ prefer 5 minutes versus 1 hour, I installed MEPIS for many people and I don't want to spend hours doing that, in addition I spend 5 minutes to customize MEPIS after I install it, with Debian it takes much more.
6. Lastly and more importantly, Debian Stable Etch has been more recent than MEPIS for how long, one month? MEPIS 6.x has been more current than latest Stable for more than a half a year. How long are you going to stay with Stable, MEPIS will have KDE 4 by the end of this yeah, what about Etch?

I understand that maybe none of these points apply to you, they apply to me and other MEPIS users (and at least point 1, 3, and 6 are essential to me) you are free to stay with Debian Etch, please don't question our reasons with misplaced superiority, that's all.

--
Check out MEPIS Wiki: www.mepis.org/docs

Here's what I found interesting ezsit. I see no problem with compare/contrast when looking at different Linux distributions. Many of us here have dabbled in many of the Linux distributions, and often on multiple forms of hardware. That is how we learn (at least how I do). But the interesting thing is that you gave no hardware specifications until your third post. I think that's why anticapitalista thought you came off a bit nasty. I don't think it's a good idea to go to "Linux Forum A" and say "Hey, Linux B is much better than Linux A. Bye!".

I am very happy that you have had such luck with loading stock Debian. Pat yourself on the back. Your mixure of timing, skill, luck, and the right combination of hardware made it possible. If any one of those had been off, just a bit, you would be telling a different tune.

But to then draw the conclussion that other installations of Debian will be just as easy, and by contrast, that Mepis will be difficult is just plain misplaced. Many of us monitor this forum to help others with problems of installation. I'm sure that if you look through the Debian forums you will find others with similar problems. The only way that these forums work is to document our findings and settings. That helps future folks to get through their problems, if they somehow match. So when you give us no information in the first few posts from which we can do our own comparison and contrasts, then this whole thing devolves into a simple "I say 'A', you say 'B'" and it is very easy for flames to get fanned.

Jon

No computer is magic, no operating system is magic, no website is magic. They all require human interaction, thought, and responsibility to work.

Hi everyone

I not sure how I found this post, I was Googling for screen savers. But anyway, I first started using Ubuntu. It felt more easier than Debian. But that was three years ago and yesterday I installed Debian Etch. Ubuntu is more "work out of the box" when it comes to multimedia stuff. But Debian text-based installer is great. Ubuntu's graphical installer didn't work at all and I had do a workaround installation using the text-based installer to be able to install it at all. I prefer text-based in general because it almost never crash and I don't have to use the mouse. The reason I switched to Debian is that I want a distro that is rock-solid. Next release in Ubuntu may just give you more problems. I spend hours and hours customizing Debian and trying out different stuff all the time, so an hour of installation is fine for me. I want more control at the cost of more time. I feel that I won't have any problems now when I have Debian installed and I will save time in long run. I have never tried MEPIS =) So I won't say anything about it. But there is a lot of "work out of the box" that needs to be done in Debian.

But my question is why didn't Warren Woodford get involved in Debian and improved that distro instead of creating a copy of it?

MEPIS or Ubuntu would not exist without Debian right? So why aren't distros derived from Debian more grateful for the great efforts of the Debian developers? Debians full name is "Debian GNU/Linux" which shows respect to the GNU and Linux developers. A sound attitude.

Beside better stability than in Ubuntu, I miss a dialog about freedom. That is an important part for me. MEPIS doesn't seem to be that interested in that either? Don't get me wrong, MEPIS seems interesting I will try it out sometime, but I want to use the original for its rock-solid stability and its philosophy about freedom.

Image Management tools that are not totally obsolete for one thing.

For example, the digiKam version in Etch is at 0.8.2. This product was released a year ago, and it was obsolete compared to Windows based image management/editing solutions at that time, since it wouldn't even edit in 16 bit mode (limited to 8 bits/channel).

http://packages.debian.org/stable/graphics/digikam

The newer 0.9.x releases include the ability to support 16 bit editing, color management and much more (starting with the first beta released in July 2006). 0.9.0 went final at the end of last year (and they had betas and RCs before that).

None of the 0.9.x releases ever made it to Debian Testing, much less Etch.

They *finally* moved a much newer 0.9.2 RC3 to Testing at the end of last month (they skipped all of the other 0.9.x releases with testing, and don't seem to care if Etch is using very obsolete software.

http://packages.qa.debian.org/d/digikam.html

Sid now has digiKam 0.9.2 Final (and even SimplyMEPIS 6.5 has a much newer 0.9.0 available compared to the old 0.8.2 version in Etch). 0.9.2 is pretty good. It's got loads of neat plugins (all converted to 16 bit during the 0.9.0 development cycle last year), support for raw files from many newer cameras (using an updated KDcraw library based on dcraw.c), and much more.

Forget processing raw files using the some of the image management related packages in Etch, unless you have a camera that's long since been discontinued and replaced by a newer model, and even then, forget digiKam 0.8.2(it's only an 8 bit image management solution)

I'd take a look at sidux (based on Debian Sid) if you want non-obsolete software. I've got a partition with sidux 2007-2 on it I installed the first of last month and I've been spending much of my time in it:

http://www.sidux.com

Some software in it is pretty old too. But, it's a lot better than most. There is no way I'd consider installing Etch.

Or, stick with SimplyMEPIS 6.5. It's got digiKam 0.9.0 in it's pools. It's not current by a long shot. But, at least it's got support for 16 bit images, unlike the old 0.8.2 version in Etch.

The digiKam version in Etch is virtually useless. I shoot mostly raw + jpeg, and I can't add my raw photos to albums for image management and further processing. I can't view those photos, edit those photos, etc. Even if I used a different raw converter first and gave up the ability to actually add my raw images to albums for management and further processing, the old version of digiKam in Etch it doesn't support 16 bit editing at all (and you can get a lot of posterization trying to edit jpegs). It's obsolete.

Jim C.