CNR timetable? probability? effects on MEPIS 7?

I don't know what Warren is planning, but I certainly hope CNR is not in the future for MEPIS.

Apt-get does things quite nicely, and is nowhere near broken. KPackage and Synaptic are fine tools for those who need a package management front-end.

How's my posting?

Please call: 1-800-DEV-NULL

CNR is something that the Linspire folks designed for their system. Before Linspire, and before CNR, there was a tool called Synaptic. It is a GUI tool that allows you to find, install, and upgrade one or more packages on a DEBIAN-based system. Mepis has Synaptic installed by default. When you first install Mepis, synaptic will be there for you.

And if you should like a slightly different interface, you can always use Kpackage.

One other difference to CNR: Synaptic is free (but consider paying Warren for packaging all this stuff together for you)

Jon

The ability to comfortably use a computer is directly proportional to desire to listen, learn, and experiment, and is inversely proportional to the fear, anger, and stubbornness that you show.

I understand that CNR is a Linspire (and Freespire) thing. I also understand Synaptic, have used it, and have sent Warren money... hopefully things work out well enough I can send him more $$$.

Synaptic and apt-get work well for me, but I am not talking about me. I am simply asking the question, because (once again) I've got numerous people who are interested in MEPIS for the benefits, but these people are computer neophytes... VERY basic functionality and I don't know if they've ever even installed a program. (don't know, didn't say they didn't know how...)

These potential customers would expand MEPIS use, but they need something MORE graphical and MORE instructional than Synaptic and/or apt-get.

They don't want to and won't learn those two.

This is why I specifically asked the question I did, because reading different reviews, including, but not limited to Desktop Linux... CNR may be the ticket for GETTING NEWBIES LIKE THIS TO USE MEPIS.

Is that clearer now?

I believe anything that increases useage and acceptance of Linux is a good thing as long as it doesn't take away more than it gives.

JMHO,
Clinton

If somebody is not able to use Synaptic or KPackage they shouldn't use a computer, they should pay somebody to click and type for them.

--
Check out MEPIS Wiki: www.mepis.org/docs
Post on MEPISLovers, that's where MEPIS users help each other.

As glass...

This has to be said, but I'd like to preface it by stating that I am not attempting to be gratuitously insulting.

It has always been my habit and practice to raise an individual to the level of understanding necessary to accomplish a given task. That may amount to learning technical subject matter, or simply using a device.

I have always rejected "dumbing-down" material in such instances, because it both, does not work, and it creates an individual who becomes dependent upon the teacher for trivial needs.

I have, in fact, rendered support services to customers using Linspire machines. When I first saw CNR, I thought it might be a boon for transitioning windoze users to a Linux-based platform.

Suffice it to say that I was wrong on that count.

(Talk about consumer egotism!) Then, the best favor you can do them--and yourself--is to tell them to buy a mac, then change your phone number.

It's at times like this that I muse over how nice it would be if computer purchase required a form of qualifying certification...after all, we require a driver's license of people before they drive on public highways, don't we?

Something about keeping the Forrest Gump types off the public Internet appeals to me.

How's my posting?

Please call: 1-800-DEV-NULL

I understand that you are wanting to increase the usage and acceptance of Linux Clinton, but when I saw that statement, my first response was, "What?" When somebody approaches me with a computer question and tells me, "I want to learn A, but I don't want to learn B!" I try to dig a little deeper to find out why they think B is connected to A. What do your friends really KNOW about synaptic or apt-get? Have you told them? Has somebody else told them? Is what they are stating stubbornness or insecurity, or FUD?

No, an end-user doesn't need to know the inner workings of how a processor chip works, or what a compiler does in order to bring up a browser or balance their checkbook. But one of the wonderful things about Linux is that you can learn different ways to do things. Are they also going to complain because they have to use a root password and/or "su" and/or "sudo" to do things? Are they willing to LEARN that there really is method to the madness. Or are you going to be providing all of the hand-holding?

As EnigmaOne pointed out above, if they really want a nice, easy to use, and SAFE computer, have them get a Mac. That's what I bought my wife. I have one too. I think they're great machines and there is a lot you can do with them. I am not in a position to show my wife a lot of things when it comes to the OS and usage, (and I got tired of buying cheap, soon-to-break laptops) so we figured that Mac OS X was the way to go for her. And I can use virtual machine technology to play with Mepis and other operating systems

Jon

The ability to comfortably use a computer is directly proportional to desire to listen, learn, and experiment, and is inversely proportional to the fear, anger, and stubbornness that you show.

My 5 ct:
Synaptic is fine, Kpackage too, CNR is easy to use as well. I see CNR as a way to increase revenue. I'm sure the Linspire guys pay some percents of their income to the developers who include CNR. Linspire/Freespire and the distros including it are a very comfortable frontend to a software online shop.

For me it comes down to:
Including CNR = more revenue.
Not including it = more peace of mind.

How 'bout this: Setup your own store with CNR server, customize your clients M7 installs with CNR and get all the revenue yourself. ... hehe

STIBS

I gave CNR a try and did not like it, but I'm only one person, so when Debian decides to put it in the repos I will try it again, but I'm sure I will still not like it. And I will not teach a new user how to use a tool I would not use.

I all ready use "apt" to install "Synaptic" and to do a "dist-upgrade" and I use "Kpackage" to install a deb or rpm package that I have downloaded from the internet.
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Registered Linux User #380263

Jimmy, be careful of the "dist-upgrade" option in apt when applied to Mepis (or *buntu for that matter). The option is intended to upgrade all of the packages for a particular distribution, but it is tuned for Debian, not Debian-derived distributions. We get the occasional post here from someone who's using some version of Mepis, the learn about apt, do a dist-upgrade and they become very sad

Of course, THAT MIGHT CHANGE. Once Mepis goes back to a closer link to its roots in Debian, perhaps a dist-upgrade will work without problems. Perhaps some of the current developers and testers of Mepis 7 will be able to comment on this: Does/Will "dist-upgrade" work on Mepis 7?

Jon

The ability to comfortably use a computer is directly proportional to desire to listen, learn, and experiment, and is inversely proportional to the fear, anger, and stubbornness that you show.

Yes, so far it did. BUT: NOT TODAY...!, as there is a problem with an upgrade of libc6-i386 that conflicts with ia32-libs-mepis.

Voorbereiden om libc6-i386 2.3.6.ds1-13 te vervangen (door .../libc6-i386_2.3.6.ds1-13etch2_amd64.deb) ...
Uitpakken van vervangende libc6-i386 ...
dpkg: fout bij afhandelen van /var/cache/apt/archives/libc6-i386_2.3.6.ds1-13etch2_amd64.deb (--unpack):
poging tot overschrijven van `/usr/lib32', wat ook in pakket ia32-libs-mepis zit
Fouten gevonden tijdens behandelen van:
/var/cache/apt/archives/libc6-i386_2.3.6.ds1-13etch2_amd64.deb
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
A package failed to install. Trying to recover:

---not recovered--

So, the answer is NO - at this time.

Note added: I have reported this problem to Warren.

Ko Bros

Thanks Ko for responding.

I haven't had a chance to test this out, and hadn't seen anything on the internal list good or bad about this either, so I figured it wasn't (yet) an option.

Jon

The ability to comfortably use a computer is directly proportional to desire to listen, learn, and experiment, and is inversely proportional to the fear, anger, and stubbornness that you show.

"If somebody is not able to use Synaptic or KPackage they shouldn't use a computer, they should pay somebody to click and type for them."

The tighter the restrictions, the less people will use it. There is no correct answer, there is no correct "formula" for what has to be learned vs. optional.

I personally find computer users who literally don't care and won't try to be embarrassing human beings. A tragic speed bump in the road of life.

But that's not my original point. I'd like to see MEPIS and Linux grow and have hope CNR can do that.

a blanket statement regarding minimum requirements for being allowed to use a computer sounds a little too much like A Brave New World... and I don't want that and would not accept that.

Nobody that I am aware of is insulted.

Believe me... I understand the teaching aspect of computers. I cannot count the number (dozens? hundreds?) of users I have taught by starting at the beginning "here is the power button".

Teaching is the only way to provide them with independence.

There is still the aspect of teaching the most in the least amount of time for $many$ reasons, not $all$ involving money, but time/ $money$ are central points.

Blanket statements are dangerous... mine and yours (everybody else's) because each computer is configured/used differently and each user does it a little differently.

Keeping the eye on the ball... my thinking is the same as what you wrote "When I first saw CNR, I thought it might be a boon for transitioning windoze users to a Linux-based platform"

So please... describe why you were wrong on that count. EDUCATE US on your experience!

Now... even with your experience in mind, I cannot believe that CNR won't improve. I mean, it would be in a LOT of people's best interest if the developers listen to feedback and incorporate the helpful, pertinent suggestions into future versions.

For a bunch of people who are supposedly Linux promoters, I find it puzzling there is such a "can't do" attitude.

So what was goofy / bad about CNR? Why didn't it meet your expectations? What needs to be improved in order to meet your expectations?

Please.

So are you saying this is a GPL issue?


For me it comes down to:
Including CNR = more revenue.
Not including it = more peace of mind.

What about ease of use? Do you see CNR beneficial there?

I see a perceived need (in a package manager) for clearer organization of titles, so if you are looking for a vector graphics program, the choices would be in a category... that's just my thinking or my way of describing a perceived need.

Is your "peace of mind" solely regarding licensing issues (aka money?)

CNR is a tool, like any other, why shouldn't it be given a real look?

I've been using Mepis for a little while now, and it took me awhile to understand what .deb, .rpm, .tar.gz, etc. were. I've spent a lot of time trying to learn how to install everything correctly. I didn't learn how to use windoze in a day, why should I expect to know how to use GNU/Linux right away.

I've used Synaptic to install a lot of applications, and I've used KPackage to install what I download, like the latest OO.o

Why am I not entitled to save a little time here and there by using a tool that, to my understanding, will be able to help me install the latest and greatest open-source software on my Mepis-powered machine.

I'm a student at a university with a very strong agriculture program, where people are more likely to know how to fix a truck and tractor than a computer, but if I want to try and convince people to try Mepis, one big point I'll be emphasizing is ease-of-use, that and the zero-cost going into it. These are smart people, but they (whether pre-vet, nursing students, etc) expect things to "just work" for them, which is one of the reasons I really like Mepis, it does that.

These students have to be able to do basic things, like going on the internet and typing papers. Just because they don't/wont/wouldn't want to learn Synaptic doesn't mean they should have to hire someone to click and type for them.

Most people I deal with are also not willing to shell out money for a Mac. What's the pricetag on a Macbook again? Don't get me wrong, I like them, but I'm looking at how I'm going to SAVE money while I'm going to college.

You're treading in dangerous waters when you say that some people should not be allowed online. It brings to mind a quote, something like "beware of he that seeks to withhold information from you, for in his heart he seeks to control you". I'm sure we heard consumer egotism, but forgive me for saying, but what about our egotism? Just because we understand this means we are the only ones entitled to it?
A car is a means of transportation, I know really smart people who get by without a drivers license, for students the internet can be a great learning tool, and is essential for some classes.
And the truth is, you can't and wont stop people from going online. You can't stop people from typing up papers, reports, letters, or anything. The ability and opportunity to do those basic functions is out there, whether they do it on Mac, windoze, or GNU/Linux, it's out there.

Personally, I see positives and negatives to CNR. There are already a lot of good package managers and methods to install a rich variety of programs under all the different installation formats, is another method just going to confuse people more? Is it "cheating"? But could this be used as a tool to allow those developers out there that are busy translating .rpm-.deb-.tar.gz-etc. to move on to other productive work? Will this simplify things for people who don't want to learn the differences between formats? Or the ones who find the current ways to long or tedious?

I want to see Mepis continue to be one of the best Operating Systems out there (because in my opinion it is), and if that means we get CNR, I'll use it, and if not, I'm more than willing to just keep learning.

The problem on 64bit was solved for me with the 17.08 updates. I mentioned it to Warren.

On Friday 17 August 2007 5:23:15 am you wrote:
> Solved on 7.0 prebeta 64bit with installing the new updates, including the
> updated (dummy?) ia32-libs-mepis of today 17.08.

Reply from Warren 17-08:

Thanks for the update. The old version of my packages was incompatible with
the new version of the standard package. It should be ok going forward but
someone using the prebeta may need to uninstall my conflicting packages,
complete the standard updates, and then reinstall the new version of my
packages. Or it would probably also work to update the MEPIS packages first
and then update the standard packages.

BTW, I've uploaded a new kernel and also the Beta1 isos. Now to write an
announcement...

Best,

Warren

So, now you know... I just completed the downloads

Regards, Ko

Ko Bros

I see some Newbie confusion here, you like the idea of free software and you want CNR.

While Linux was developed to be free and open source CNR was not.

CNR was developed for commercial use by the makers of a commercial operating system and had nothing to do with the spirit of Linux.

Sure things change, so like I said above when the developers decide to include it in their repos I will give it another try.

I would think that Linux software developers have more important things on their to-do list than worry about adding CNR.

So while you think about using CNR I think about watching movies, playing my music and browsing the web using a free and open source 32/64bit operating system that is using free and open source software.
------------------------------------------------------------
Registered Linux User #380263

Yes, libc6 can be a bad little bugger, so many other software rely on it.

As I have had problems with the last two kernels, I thank you for passing on the news of the new iso and look forward to giving it a try as soon as it hits the public servers.
------------------------------------------------------------
Registered Linux User #380263

CNR is currently open source, though http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/aboutFAQCnrCom.seam#12 no it wasn't created that way, but it is now.

Developers could also have more important things to do than translate packages from .rpm-.deb, or tarballs to one of the two. Not being a developer I don't know which would be more difficult, handling hundreds of translations or adding something like CNR.

And, as such it has its benefits and detriments; however, let's simply define what we're discussing, here, and I'll clarify my perspectives relative to both definitions of 'CNR'.

(1.) CNR is a repository access tool, much like KPackage and Synaptic. It is IMHO, however, inferior to both.

(2.) CNR is a repository provisioning service which has its own faults and foibles. CNR is a--originally speaking--a paid, subscription service.

My experience has shown me that, with CNR, everything's a shot in the dark.

As a tool, CNR hides lots of information from the user, and forces the user to rely on faith that the installed package will work in all respects. The basic assumption of the "CNR paradigm" is this: The user is ignorant, and incapable of rational, independent thought, or learning. It is very "windoze-like."

I have supported Lindows/Linspire machines, and have observed enough system breakage and lack of upgradability as a result of the restrictions imposed by CNR, to know that it really is no different than what goes wrong with other package management front ends; except for the fact that you receive less initial information about dependencies which would otherwise guide one in making the decision to attempt, or not attempt, an installation.

As a service, CNR has very poor program selection options, and rev currency. Where one might wish to install a non-Linspire package, trouble is usually the result. For the more esoteric programs that one might wish to use to support profession x|y|z, you can count on either the program not being available, or a dependency failure.

...and one should expect to invest what it takes to learn how to use one's own distribution choice--or select another distribution which meets their needs in a better manner. This much is self-evident.

You may want anything you care to set your eye upon...to drive a car, a tax refund, to see a movie; however, none of those are entitlements, per se. Entitlements may be libre, may occasionally be gratis, but are rarely free of obligation on the part of the recipient--those are called "gifts."

Sorry. The hallmark of an intelligent person is not that they expect the worlds corners to be padded for them, and they never have to learn anything new; to the contrary, it is that they are willing to learn how to use the tools available to them, and contribute to society using those tools.

Quite correct. It, more accurately, means that they need to find something else to use. Linspire, Xandros, Mac, windoze and hiring a technically-literate butler are all viable options to one degree or another. Lack of the desire to be learned and self-sufficient is the user's problem. Blaming the distribution provider--no matter who it might be--is consumer egotism; which pretty-much amounts to a "Kiss my posterior, or I'll stop using your distribution (usually without ever having supported the distribution) and whine about it a lot."

Linux can do without infantile attitudes like that.

I'm in that camp, myself. The hardware is encumbered by too many firmware copyrights to be a true free market competitior, and the product is inordinately and unjustifiably expensive. I also shoulder my responsibilities in my consumer choice by learning how to use what I've chosen to use; and have done that since I moved from DR-DOS and UNIX to Linux.

I'm probably treading in the same dangerous waters when I say that people shouldn't drive without a license or while under the influence of mind/perception-altering chemicals, but that's just me--I'm picky that way. Other folks would claim that they have an entitlement no matter what, and no matter who is harmed in their getting what they want.

I've been using the ARPAnet since 1978, so I think I can see the changes in the landscape over that period of time well-enough for myself. 1994 was a dark year for the commercialization of the Internet. What used to be an academic-like environment has been changed into a constant infomercial-blaring collection of strip malls, crack houses and blatant illiteracy.

My statement that certain people should not be allowed to connect to the public Internet (much after the fashion that the FCC regulates the public airwaves in the United States) is just as self-evident as saying that three year-old children should not be allowed to drive cars on high speed interstate highways.
Ignorant computer users choke the bandwidth of the public Internet with SPAM, things like LoveBug, Sasser, Storm Worm, Big Yellow, and Code Red outbreaks, and IM exploit attempts. These things are not generally caused by Linux/UNIX users worldwide. They are caused by ignorant people who insist on using a Fisher Price operating system, and we suffer because of it.

I resent the past couple of weeks of poor bandwidth and page loads that hang for even minutes at a time, because that is the reward we get for tolerating incompetent computer users. Would you attempt to deny me my opinion and the right to elucidate same? Let me put a finer point on it: Ignorant computer users steal the Internet access services I have paid for; which makes them, by negligence or malevolent intent, criminals--doesn't it?

That's probably a more balanced attitude that the "slippery slope-ish" rhetoric that I saw earlier. I have no problem in Michael Robertson/Linspire developing the CNR front end into something that actually makes sense, but they have significantly more work to do on that count.

At this point, CNR possesses the same type of quality that windoze has--it's pretty but not possessed of "solid functionality". It panders to the natural laziness of the human condition. (Really now...have you actually used CNR yourself, or just heard about it...do you realize how many clicks that CNR doesn't save you?)

I don't see Robertson as being motivated to actively develop CNR to the same level of quality that KPackage possesses now--Mike was into MP3.com to make money...nothing more. Lindows/Linspire is just his latest game to make a buck. People like that really don't care about quality in the same way that the KDE folks or Linux Kernel team does.

Anyway, this "CNR-thing" has ranged far and wide, and really amounts to .

It's Warren's decision what he does about the CNR issue. It's merely my humble opinion that time is better spent on other issues rather than attempting to integrate a poor-quality tool like CNR into MEPIS.

The official CNR repos are not compatible with the direction MEPIS is taking, and represents a narrower selection of packages than the Debian Repos. Using the CNR Repos, would represent a step backward of several orders of magnitude for MEPIS.

MEPIS is (I would hope) above that.

...and installing packages with apt-get, KPackage or (occasionally) Synaptic; and using the programs...huh?

How's my posting?

Please call: 1-800-DEV-NULL

You make some very good points about how CNR could be / might already be flawed. However it is now an open-source program, now being made for a variety of different distributions, there could be some growing pains, but I have full confidence that they will be worked out eventually. So why don't we keep our options open, and when we get the chance lets make sure that, should someone so desire, they're able to use it.

I liked your reference to windoze being a "fisher price" OS.

You're very right about the hallmark of intelligent people, however I was referring to how people who aren't in the computer business or otherwise passionate about working with computer business expect things dealing with computers to "just work". They all have their own professions, and their own hobbies, and within them they are very skilled, flexible, and able to learn.
I think that we are a minority. We feel that to understand how computers work is worth knowing, but not everyone feels that way. To suggest that because they don't learn more than the basics of what they need to know to get their own work done is a basis for withholding computer and internet use (please correct me if I'm wrong) sounds like a terrible form of elitism.
Doctors aren't going to stop from operating on you because you failed out of freshmen anatomy. Mechanics aren't going to refuse your business because you don't know where your muffler is. This is one of the reasons why IMHO computer use and the internet has become a right.

Great, I especially liked this:

--
Check out MEPIS Wiki: www.mepis.org/docs
Post on MEPISLovers, that's where MEPIS users help each other.

I hate having anything installed that I don't use.

Speaking of Package Managers we have a new kid on the block called "Smart PM", it can be found in your up to date Mepis 6.5 install, check your repos for "smartpm".
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Registered Linux User #380263

Hey Sunnyboy =)

Don't mix the licensing of CNR with licensing of applications installed/bought throught it.

CNR is free software. But with this tool Linspire sells for-money-software to the Linux users. From the for-money-software, sold through CNR, the distributors including CNR in their distro will earn a percentage from Linspire (if the sales/buying process is done through the Linspire shop backend). That's what I predict will happen. This way Linspire creates resellers of their software online shop. Not a too bad idea imho.

About the second part of my conclusion:
>>Not including it = more peace of mind.

a) Linspire has a not too good reputation in the Linux world.
b) As stated, CNR wasn't free software originally.
c) Synaptic was OSS from the beginning and is nearly as easy to use as CNR.

Regarding the "easier to use" and "better sorted" demands of users:

It's a task for the packagers and those who write package descriptions. This meta information is in the package. If you decide (decaaaades ago) to split the categories into Grapics and Development, it's quite a rough sortation, matching the demands back then. A packager can write much better categories in the package descriptions such as
Vector Graphics
Photo Editing
Photo Cataloging
Paint Software
Kids Painting
as an example to split the Graphics category much more detailed. But todays packagers are still bound to the old standards.

So it's a task for the packagers and distributors to grow a more detailed package category tree, not a task for the program displaying those categories (CNR,Synaptic,Kpackage,...).

And as everywhere with standards, growing such a new tree takes its time.

Cheers!
STIBS
Did I miss something?

Excellent clarification and summary of information!

"Um, what did you say your name was?"
"They call me 'Mister STIBS'!"

Listen to what this guy says. He knows from where he speaks

Jon

The ability to comfortably use a computer is directly proportional to desire to listen, learn, and experiment, and is inversely proportional to the fear, anger, and stubbornness that you show.

IRC last week on #mepis ... lol ... on my way into the room
C U there
STIBS
--------------------
Did I miss something?

EnigmaOne: Excellent points, excellent education in your reply to the questions I posted. I have not allegiance or preference regarding CNR. However, I have read (not this forum) how CNR is as significant as the second coming... and just wanted to ASK QUESTIONS HERE regarding issues surrounding it. Thanks for your time and information. I appreciate that your answers address my intentions/questions.

Mister stubby,
I was asking questions for clarification, not implying or intentionally mixing issues. Once again... simply for clarification: I originally asked if CNR was going to come to MEPIS. I guess the second part wasn't a direct question, so for clarity, I will now belatedly state (not asking again!) the question already answered: "What are the pros and cons of CNR?"

That's not a new question, it's simply stating what was originally meant, but not originally clear enough. Fortunately there have been many thoughtful comments and answers

My goal is "watching movies, playing my music and browsing the web using a free and open source 32/64bit operating system that is using free and open source software" as Jimmy Fuelcan is talking about... and getting this to as many people as can usefully use this great OS, not that I "like the idea of free software and ... want CNR."