Open Source CD for Windows Users

Great idea!

Of course the CD should contain software that's preinstalled on Mepis : OpenOffice.org, Gaim, Gimp, Firefox, Azureus.

Good source of info is the Open CD project www.theopencd.org/ (or maybe distribute their CD which is pretty good)

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This is a great idea. I would hope the cd could also be used as Mepis Live CD but I'm not sure if that's workable. If not the idea is still excellent.

We've been giving out the OpenCDs at our store for some time but now with their move more to Ubuntu it would be welcomed change to have a product focusing on Mepis.

Darrell

Joe, I think this is a very good idea. The more ways that we can show people that there are other ways to use their computers without being beholden to The MS Machine the better! There is one site that a friend of mine, who likes older, smaller, tighter apps, found is TinyApps.org
www.tinyapps.org

Perhaps there might be a few apps you can borrow from that site.

Jon

I beleave that the focus should be more on mepis not windows. I think the effort should be put towards fixing the things that mepis does not do well. Mepis is already a live cd and people can try linux stuff already. I already use open office and gimp in windows. I don't think you should waste your time bringing together all the free applications that work on windows when there are so many problems with windows already. I think this is just going to cause problems if they screw up a already screwed up system. I have converted many friends and family to mepis linux already and i pass along a mepis disk when i hear someone is having problems with windows. I do beleave windows to be a great system and if you start offering all the windows apps then there will be very little reason for people to leave it for a system that is still working out the bugs. Please consider putting the effort it would take to make that windows cd and instead work on getting mepis workin with all the updates and bugs worked out. I am still a beata tester for windows and trust me when i say they don't need your help to promote them, because that's what you will be doing with a cd that has windows compatiable apps. I can picture it now all the "what does it have" "but i have that already""windows offers the same stuff and more" ....
Please just make mepis the best you can and people will hear and want to try it. Let's concetrate on when they try it, will you be ready?

I can see that it might help on one hand, by showing people that FOSS is quality, and also if they start using these programs on windows, and invest their data in those formats, there will be less holding them back from switching to linux.

On the negative side, some of the great open source software we have on linux doesn't run so well on windows. I've had many headaches using Gimp and Dia for windows, for example. But they run great on Linux. So if you do it you'll have to make sure to only use apps that have a rock-solid performance on windows. Also, as has been said, putting this software on someone's hosed up windows box is not going to make them understand how smooth linux runs and why they ought to switch.

Seems like putting effort into making Mepis easier and better would be effort better spent.

1. it's not a great effort to put together open source projects on a CD.
2. if people use the same applications in Windows it will be easier to switch to Linux. It's not a matter of making Windows better it's a matter of giving people choices and I think this is what free software is about, right?

And think about it... if you give OpenOffice to people and they don't pay hundreds of $ to Microsoft then Microsoft will have less money to pay for misleading "get the facts" press campaigns about free software.

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I Still say that time, money and resources could be put to better use. If i'm going to take the time to download something i would rather download the whole system instead of bits and pieces for a windows system. To have someone or more people looking around for linux apps that run on windows and then test them, when they can be testing mepis and helping to fix things. I am really wondering what the priortes are here. I love mepis, but lately all the changes are making mepis apper to be a crap OS with the updates turning peoples systems to crap and wanting to unistall all of kde just to install some simple app. Why would you expect people to want to use a system that has been cut off from the things that make it such a great system to use. All versions of mepis has now become relics thanks to the debian updates. Its ether use a old system as is or chance your system turning to toast.

Kerry, your statements hurt, but are very true in many ways. I would like to be able to tell folks on the forum who are asking for help, "Don't worry, your system will update just fine." Better yet, I would like to not have to tell them anything of the kind, to have synaptic set to "Default Upgrade" and the proper repositories configured so that upgrades "just work".

I know that much of this is outside of Mepis's control, but I would also agree with you Kerry that I would like to see some of the "holes" of Mepis filled. Is it possible to partner with the WINE group (or qemu) to get more Windows apps to work within WINE (or qemu) and Mepis?

There was also a notice by Warren back in 2004 about a 64-bit version of Mepis being available in "early 2005". Coincidentally, I have a friend who, just two days ago, expressed interest in a 64-bit version. As far as I know, only SUSE and Slackware have 64-bit versions available.

OK, enough of my wish/gripe list. Joe originally wanted our input on what we wanted to see, so I've probably gone over my quota

Jon

Keep the input coming. This is great. I will say that it is important to understand that the focus of this is to promote and advocate the use of products other than Microsoft based applications.

I am not sure what language that the team is using to develop the installer, but honestly it would take only minutes to create. All you are doing is using a central program to point to the application installers. I am sure there is not a bunch of extra effort being put into this, and the work will definitely not take time from Mepis development.

Once again, this is only a possibilty. No one has 100% confirmed to me that this will be happening. Once it is decided I am sure an official announcement will be on the front page and then some sort of campaign will begin to spread the word. Thanks everyone and keep the input coming.

Joe Pearce

The student is not above the teacher
The servant is not above the master
The student shares the teacher's fate
The servant shares the master's

http://www.joepearce.com

I guess some people have mixed feelings "Why help Windows?" but here the idea is to help people to use whatever works for them. Some are not ready to use Linux some don't want and some can't (at work have to use specific Windows programs) however it's good to educate people that there are alternatives. That's the main point.

..and of course that there's free (as in freedom) quality software out there.

Thanks Joe for making it clear that this is not an effort.

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I'm not saying it's a matter of helping windows or not, but i just believe that mepis needs to work on mepis.

Also i had a problem with that new mepislite were all off a sudden it just wouldn't boot. I was wondering how yours is running? I have for now reinstalled the 3.3.1 version back on. I wanted to install it on my other hard drive but for some reason it is having problems installing to the extended partion.

Not only does Mepis need to work on Mepis, Mepis needs community support to achieve the level of sophistication that it needs to compete.

Microsoft does not write all those drivers that work for all those hardware devices. It enlists "business partners." Those with a vested interest in making the devices work. Of course, Mepis doesn't have the money to hire people to make Mepis work on every conceivable hardware combination, and it doesn't have the clout to pressure hardware manufacturers. But it does have veritable army of volunteer developers at its disposal, and no means to harness them. Too bad.

Look at all the people, for example, that've had to be walked through their X configuration, even though hundreds of people have exactly the same hardware. Why isn't there some Mepis-supported plugin mechanism whereby this knowledge can be shared? Or wireless or even apt repository settings ...

I'm afraid this thread is moving from the "Open Source CD for Windows User" subject to "How to make Mepis better". If you want to discuss the later subject please open a new thread with that subject.

As pointed above by Joe this is not an effort and it doesn't take time from developing Mepis (I could make a CD like that in less then 1 hour) so I think your concerns are misplaced.

Getting back to the subject I think an Open Source CD is a great idea, it promotes opens source software in a real way (BTW, I think Ubuntu does the same thing).

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Let's not forget that here are maybe millions of computer users around the world who have NO CHOICE about which OS they use as it is chosen for them by the company/organisation they work for. Most of them probably have no or little interest in "how the box works" (or in the case of windoze, how it doesn't work), but they want to run apps that are reliable and do the job.
If the open source world wants to seriously show to these people (and their bosses) how good, reliable and stable open source is on windoze - fair enough.
If the Mepis developers wish to be part of this idea, again great.
Will Mepis benefit from all this?
I'm the pessimist here- I doubt it.
Not because Mepis isn't a great distro (It is), but because I see the "big guns" eventually taking over the small guys as has happened already with some linux projects, and generally what is happening in the business world ie car industry, supermarkets etc.

anticapitalista

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

Joe, in your last post you stated, "I am not sure what language that the team is using to develop the installer, but honestly it would take only minutes to create."

Am I to infer that an entirely separate group of people is working on this project? If so, care to give us more of a hint as to who/what this will entail?

Jon

Assuming, then, that the effort involved would be minimal and would only negligably detract from Mepis development, and understanding that the intent is to ease the transition from and reduce the dependency on proprietary software...

I would just warn that the team needs to be careful and selective about which products to include, and make sure to do ample testing to make sure you aren't going to leave people with a bad taste. As I've mentioned, I've had bad experiences with some open-source apps on windows not being as robust as the linux version. You'll also have to make sure that "dependencies" like mono or JRE are included on the disc.

Have you got a preliminary list of apps in mind?

I really haven't heard how this effort plans to differentiate itself. Is it planning to be a Mepis-lookalike or what?

Why not contribute to an existing effort: http://www.theopencd.org/ ?

Jon said 'Joe, in your last post you stated, "I am not sure what language that the team is using to develop the installer, but honestly it would take only minutes to create."'

Am I to infer that an entirely separate group of people is working on this project? If so, care to give us more of a hint as to who/what this will entail?'

This is the Mepis development team I am refering too. I am saying that I am not part of the development team and that I am only passing information to you that I was contacted about. I am only a moderator and pass on information that I receive to the community, as I receive it.

GVC said 'I really haven't heard how this effort plans to differentiate itself. Is it planning to be a Mepis-lookalike or what?
Why not contribute to an existing effort: http://www.theopencd.org/ ?'

Though the mission may be similar, this is a different effort with a somewhat more specific goal. This CD will only include the afore mentioned software which is only 4 applicaitons, Firefox, OO.o 2.0, Thuderbird, and Sunbird. Also, I am sure that the CD will include Mepis-centric design details to help advocate Mepis and promote the switch from Windows to Mepis. The ultimate goal of course is to have people switch from Windows to Mepis.

I do not have all of the answers. If you look at my original comments you will notice that I said it is a possibilty. The purpose of this thread was just to get basic feedback and to see if our users would get on board to help spread the word if this release occured. I understand and respect all of your comments and concerns, and I am sure they will be addressed later on, but for now lets concentrate on the big picture, advocating Mepis. We want to think of ways to let these CDs/ISOs to as many Windows users as possible in hopes of a switch occurring.

Joe Pearce

The student is not above the teacher
The servant is not above the master
The student shares the teacher's fate
The servant shares the master's

http://www.joepearce.com

Ubuntu does the same thing. It provides open source software on it's CDs. It's not a competition with theopencd.org it's an additional channel to distribute open source software.

Why so many questions? Why would a free CD bother you I don't understand?

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I personally think that Firefox and OpenOffice.org are the biggest help for Linux community especially because they work on Windows too. How I wish more people knew about OpenOffice.org...

As I said before, I switched to Linux because of Opera... so you see even a closed source program might help people to switch over. If I didn't have any clue about Opera or Firefox and I would have used IE than probably there were less chances that I would have even tried Linux -- I think that's true for many other people.

But anyway I guess that's my last post on the subject because I don't see how this is such a big deal anyway would go.

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Build a Linux CD that can be run within Windows.
"Live" CDs scare the average Windows user. They are afraid of 'damage' (life is full of irony) and they hate to reboot. Give them something they can just pop in and autostart like a video game.

Firefox/Opera
IE & Windows Media Player via Wine**
PDF conversion utility
Gimp
Gaim
Thunderbird
Smb4k browser / Samba (?)
Cygwin (?)
VNC / Remote Desktop Management
Kweather (people love weather gadgets)
Knotes
Firestarter (closest thing to Zone Alarm, folks are paranoid these days)
Ark (or the likes of)
OpenOffice

**(I realize having IE is redundant but the first time 'the average windows user' sees IE running on Linux, it makes them say "hmm, how'd they do that?". Incidently, wine-config-sidenet works quite well these days.)

Don't strive for full functionality and avoid complexity. Just give 'em a taste, some nice eye-candy on a slick Desktop, very stable, and speed, speed, speed. And be sure to include:

Adobe Reader
Real Player

Proprietary or not, users want to be able to do their everyday tasks without hastle and they require some familiaraity. Make something I can give to my mother-in-law that won't require her calling me every five minutes 'cause of that damn pop up that won't go away... Speaking of which, include at least one card game...

And finally, a disclaimer, saying 'not recommended for dial-up users' (that is a loosing battle).

q

If you treat your beta-testers as if they're your most valuable resource, they will respond by becoming your most valuable resource.

First off Joe, you stated, "The purpose of this thread was just to get basic feedback and to see if our users would get on board to help spread the word if this release occured." I certainly would be willing to give it a shot. The more varieties of tools that I can show people, that will get them to say, "Gee, that's not too bad!", the better!

Your list of apps is good qtech. However, unless OO.o improves the database portion of 2.0 it's going to confuse and tick people off I'm afraid. Are there other, smaller, self-contained database tools that are easier to set up than MySQL, that can also be used with OO.o?

Also, this is slightly off-topic, but do any of you know of a tool to convert from PDF to perhaps OO.o or .doc or some other rich format? I know there are tools to convert from PDF to text and HTML, but page and font information are lost.

The reason I ask is both personal as well as directed at this thread. The latest Adobe reader, if it's showing a PDF with input fields will not save changed data. It would be great if a PDF conversion utility could be included on the CD so that you could show people, "See, I can take this PDF file, convert it to a word processing document, and open it in OpenOffice.org Writer!" If this is completely off-topic, I'll open a new thread

Jon

I don't think it is really possible to recover the document structure from pdf. pdf is just a wrapper around postscript, which is a rendering language based on forth. It uses a rich set of libraries but basically it the program runs around and says "put this pixel here and that one there" or larger things like "rotate and scale this block" and so on.

pdf to text is just a hack that replaces some of the rendering routines with ones that output ascii instead of placing pixels on the page. It uses heuristics to place the characters and for some significant fraction of documents gives you good enough text that you can search it or perhaps read a small passage. Render a document in reasonable format it cannot. And for some minority of documents it doesn't work at all.

If you buy Acrobat, you can save documents with filled-in forms. Barring that, you can print to a file (with a postscript printer definition) and then convert the postscript back to pdf. You'll lose the ability to edit further, but you'll have a filled-in copy. You can convert from postscript to pdf using "ps2pdf" available with Cygwin.

Good points gvc and I will try to print to postscript and convert from there.

I did do some further research a la Google, and found that kword will import PDFs! I just took a county form (one that I'm currently needing for legal matters) and read it in using kword. Almost. It turns out the imported document has "frames" in it, the text lines are wrapped, and the fonts don't look entirely right. I don't have the printed form in front of me to do an accurate comparison; I shall do that tonight. However, the fact that it does a decent import at all is impressive. It even includes the seal of the county in the header

So the importing is ok, but the form then needs some further tweaking. However, given that kword is part of koffice, we now get out of the realm of "putting on a Windows CD" due to size (KDE is supposed to be ported to Windows "soon"). Ah well, it was a thought

Thanks again gvc.

Jon