Mepis and Usability

I have an Olympus also. It is the way they are setup. I am not complaining, because I like the fact it will mount as an external drive anywhere without drivers.

... is the USER, not the operating system.

I've been a Linux user for about a year and just recently made the leap to Debian and am using MEPIS basically full-time. It took me a while to figure out what I was doing even with an idiot-proof distro like Mandrake. I had to read and experiment and screw things up and figure out how to fix them. I had to learn to seek advice from people on the internet and figure out whose advice really worked and whose was BS. I had to learn what my computer actually did underneath the hood.

And I've come to realize that this is the way that computing really ought to be. I don't mean to sound elitist here. I have parents too and if they had to do what I did to learn Linux all of a sudden, then they'd probably just not use a computer. But I think that people have forgotten that computers are incredibly complex machines and you have to know a few things to use them, rather than get used by them. People who use computers ought to know about things like hard disk partitions, file systems, etc. etc. that Linux forces you to learn about. I guess I like the fact that when I use Linux, I am forced to learn something about my computer. And I look with suspicion on OS's or programs that make things a little too slick and easy.

This is not a flame against the original poster -- certainly some things should be made a little more intuitive in Linux and I think that's the reason MEPIS was developed. But I'd hate to see Linux devolve into a no-brainer kind of system that just tries to do everything for the user.

I'm almost 3 months into my Linux journey and MUCH better off for having to learn how to read about and think about computers and how they work. I'f I had wanted to close my eyes to the science and engineering of computers I could have just stayed with windows - bored to tears, only doing what I could afford to do; learning only what I could afford to learn.

I've read more technical information about computers, operating systems (primarily linux), programming, (bash, c, python) in the last 3 months than in the previous 9 years of windows use. I'm learning and making progress. What seemed hard 3 weeks ago is easy today.

I love what Mepis is: a debian-based distro that is easy to test on a computer and then install on a hard drive if the test is successful. With most all of the initial thorny configuration nuances taken care of in advance. Will this be my last distro to try? Probably not. Will I share this distro? Over and over and over again.

Will I go back to windows? Emphatically no - not only no, but h*ll no, as we sometimes say. I for one am thoroughly enjoying my Linux experience, because it is the way it is. All the tools are there, including the source code. Nothing is held back. You can stay in safe, stable territory with one computer to safeguard your important data, and go out on the bleeding edge on another computer to satisfy your urge to experiment and learn, which by its very nature involves breaking things.

i'm sorry i did not read everybody's comment (almost though), i've just tried tried mepis linux today... . and i already like it.. ... ..

please, i beg, do not make it "play cd's on insert" or at least not as default, it's the kind of thing that drives me crazy.. .it would make me feel like i am not allowed to insert a cd/dvd without wanting to use it like..RIGHT AWAY.

: ]

in all cases, it's really neat, it's been a while i've been searching a nice user friendly linux.. .. well i'll see, gotta really try it out and see. . but so far, so good. .

thank you for the os.

Hi Namu,

Do not be concerned. I doubt Mepis will play CDs/DVDs on insert. At best, it should be an option that users can set. Otherwise, one should choose to play something when one wants to. Also, there are numerous times that CDs and DVDs are not used for automatic playing...
On another issue, I think it is time that users recognize that computing is complex and it will get more complex with time, and that only marketing departments sell the idea that everything works magically or will do so somehow. This does not mean that distros should not try to simplify matters (installs, upgardes, networking, etc.). But, in my opinion, accepting complexity is one way for managing one's identity responsibly (in a networked world).
Voil??.
miladus edenensis

I'll bet some of the folks here think we should scrub the dishes before we put them in the dishwasher too. Don't forget, technology should be at the service of man/woman. Computing should be easy, as should programming the vcr. Keep in mind that since computers change so quickly, the average user should invest as little time as possible studying them. If your line of business IS computers, I understand. But if you're a doctor, for example, spend your time on medicine; or read a book...

[Coming from a guy whose wife complains he wastes too much time tweaking the computer.]

A computer is like a car, would you consider buying a car with a huge double-boltlock on the hood, signing a contract with the dealer that you would be penalised legally for attempting to tamper with the lock and agreeing you would return it to the dealer for all fixes, maintenance and changes? H*#l No!!

Then why would you install an operating system on your computer that basically locks it up (no pun intended)?

>I`ll bet....... also that some of you pundits out there also believe that a car should be at the service of man/woman, that you should spend as little time as possible under the hood studying them and everytime it breaks down you can run to the shop and shell out more cash and just make it someone elses problem, why bother learning, right?

Like cars, computers are all about getting under the hood, finding out what makes it tick, so you don`t have to run to the serviceman everytime something goes wrong.

If you don`t at least understand the basic concepts of how a car works, you shouldn`t drive one. Just as if your not willing to learn the basic concepts of how a computer works you shouldn`t use one.

-------------------------------------------
Registered Linux User #341789
Live from Okazaki, Japan

Stand Up and Be Counted Faithful Linux User
http://counter.li.org

Hello a1abubba,

I'm also a bad spoiled- by Window$$$- user, now enjoying a lot the breath of freedom brought by Linux.

I've been runnig Linux for almost a year & am telling you now that I'll never ever run that OS again (I laugh when I read some1 complain about viruses, fatal errors, unexpected reboots, constant lockups for no reason, etc).

To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer.

Farmers' Almanac, 1978

Pay,
Did you know this this topic would be so popular?

I echo the comments or many before me. I started with linux at Redhat 5.2
( don't remember the date) and guess what? I still consider myself a newbie.

I'm glad to be still learning because otherwise I would loose most interest.

About 8-10 years ago I pulled the plug on my TV because I became tired of
the 'talking heads' spoon feeding me garbage, but that's just me. Now, my
TVis my computer.

Yes, I'm glad certain things 'just work' without haveing to reada'book'
which is usually outdated. The 'unix-likes' (linux, the bsd's etc) have
comea long way and now IMHO they are mostly 'comfortable' but not so comfortable that there is no challenge. Learning is the reward, learning is what makes us feel good. I'm glad I'm not a 'geek' even though I'll always be trying to be one, hee hee.

A person that 'just wants it to work' and is very happy with AOL (no offense anyone) is probably better suited to that 'other Os' I think to run the 'unix-likes' you actually have to *want* to, otherwise you will go back to the dark side.

If the unix-likes ever even get 'close' to being like that 'other OS' there will be LOT of defectors, gain-some lose-more type thing.

Yes, I still have Win98 installed along with a few other distros, that's
what dual boot is for. You can have your cake and eat it too. If you find
something you 'really' need is missing, boot into another distro/OS. Hard
drive space is pretty cheap.

I guess I've rambled enough.

Larry

Seems to me people are exaggerating the ease-of-use of Windows. When all goes well, yeah, it just works. But when something goes wrong, it's time for a long and agonizing install that's really pretty unreliable.

I'm not the geek type, and get enraged with Linux all the time when things go bad, but then I learn something and the problem gets fixed for now and for the future.

There are still unnecessary problems for newbies that could be pretty easily fixed (for example, making sure all error messages resulting from permissions problems say it's a permissions problem and not just "cannot open/[whatever]" or "command not found...". This is improving with each distro but not there yet.)

Anyway, I can't imagine going back to Windows, and Linux does everything I need it to do, and often much better. I watch my SO struggle with Word on Win (and have to try and make it better), and wonder why people think it's so easy. I use IE on her machine and it feels like driving a dying pickup truck compared to Moz Firebird, even though I'm always running into enraging difficulties with FB. Difference is, with FB I'm kind of part of an effort to keep improving a fantastic browser that makes me happy just to watch it do its stuff. With IE, well, it's just no fun and never will be.

Can't agree, i have a large bunch of doctor friends who are all computer-mad.
we use windows when we have to , linux when we want to, and because we have enquiring minds, we have to know what's under the hood.
Liz

> If you don`t at least understand the basic concepts of how a car works,
you shouldn`t drive one. Just as if your not willing to learn the basic
concepts of how a computer works you shouldn`t use one.

I'm sorry if this comes off as harsh; I don't mean it to be. I'm also sorry to resurrect what is essentually a dead thread, but I think that some of the posted comments here deserve - no, require a reply.

The above quoted text echoes many of the opinions in this thread, and, I'm sorry, but it's wrong, and the logic is frankly ridiculous.

Do you know how your fridge works? What about your telephone? Your blowdryer? How about the powerplant that generates the power for all those things?

No one should be expected to "learn how something works" before they're permitted to use it. A user cannot be expected to take the time to learn all of the ins and outs of a piece of software before using it - and nor should they be! Technology exists to serve us, to make our lives better; it's not necessary that we understand how it works in order to use it.

This sort of attitude, this "it's good enough for me, so it should be good enough for you, too, just learn how it works" mentality, is exactly what is holding Linux back from the mainstream, exactly what encourages the substandard usability that plagues OSS nearly across the board.

None other than Eric S. Raymond posted, very publicly, about this subject recently - he couldn't figure out how CUPS works. By your reasoning, he should have played with it for hours, read the documentation, dropped down into the code if need be, figure out how to make it work, and feel better about the experience. In point of fact, he did all those things, and eventually - and with help and some luck - he made CUPS work for him. But if even a noted hacker like ESR can't figure out how stuff works, what hope have the rest of us? None - and with no sign of any hope as long as mentalities like those in this thread continue to exist.

Remember - we want regular people to use this stuff! If we want to free people from the crap that is Windows (and all the other software like it), we have to write software that people can use right away - or they'll go back to windows. I myself tried Linux four times and went back to Windows or Mac OS X because it was just not worth the time to make work. I kept coming back, though, because I wanted to use Linux. Most people won't.

*end rant*

Sorry about that, but I get kind of worked up whenever I hear someone telling a user who can't actually use the software that the problem is with them, not the software. That's crap.

-j

I want people to start using Open Source operating systems and software not because I want them to learn how to properly administer a Unix-like system, but so they can enjoy secure, non-proprietary excellence.

The usability of a lot of desktop Open Source leaves a lot to be desired -- but that doesn't mean it's never going to get better or isn't rapidly approaching the usability levels of the other popular desktop OSes. I think it's pretty good. I love watching it get better all the time.

Call me a pariah, but I don't think my mom should have to use CLI to get a modern, usable, and attractive operating system.

At least...that's what I think a good part of the "linux desktop" should work toward...

"> If you don`t at least understand the basic concepts of how a car works, you shouldn`t drive one. Just as if your not willing to learn the basic concepts of how a computer works you shouldn`t use one."

This is a terrible argument. If people choose to learn more about computing, then that's fine. I don't think they shouldn't be allowed to use computers because they aren't geeks. Unfortunately, we'll remain in a 20th century mode of thought the longer we take the above quote seriously.
my .02

foo

shinwise,

Your suggestion that people are only entitled to use an item if they are able to service it makes no sense. That's not how things work in the real world. It is your kind of arrogant techno-geek attitude that gives the Linux community a bad name and prevents Linux from becoming a major OS rather than a wannabe. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Linux is supposed to be about 'choice' and that should include those who just want to 'use' the system as well as the technically proficient. The trick is to provide that use while maintaining the control and flexibility that many want. Mepis is a big step in that direction. So, if you really believe what you are saying, why don't you forget Mepis and compile your system from source?

to all of those who think that newbies shouldn't know about the command line interface, remember that we all do this differently, we aren't all the same.
try reading this for an example
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6282
liz

I don't think anyone here is saying n00bs are incapable of learning CLI and should never have to know about it.?? I believe the sentiment is that they shouldn't *need* to in order to be able to use a good operating system. Two entirely seperate things.

Hey, if I had my way, my mom would be learning the apt-get system back to front - from CLI (as simple as apt-get is). Since she chooses not to I don't think it's the software's job to punish her for not being a geek.

I definitely agree that we shouldn't need to understand to understand the 'under the hood' things to be entitled to use anything. (if you think like that,?? the number of people driving a car will be far less )

well, originaly I was going to paste some feedback about the usability of mephis from my experience using mephis, but seeing other posts in this thread I think I'll post it in some other thread

Hmmm I suggest one go take a look at the number of SUCCESSFUL 'break-ins' i.e. security breaches of corporate/home Linix desktops over the last year. Quite a few anlyses suggest that the AGGRESIVE and remarkably SUCCESSFUL one at that proselytisizng bt Sun i.e. Java Desktop System (JDS) and Lindows (DEBIAN-based) are at FAULT. By OVERSIMPLIFYING routines, allowing for BUT one login i.e. root, in the 1st quater of this year alone, the number of reported SUCCESSFUL hacking of Linux systems went up a hundred fold to DWARFING the number registered for Windoze. In their desperate push for acceptance of Linux, Sun and Lindows have SACRIFICED a very FUNDAMENTAL pillar of Linux - SECURITY.

SUCCESSFUL conversion of windoze users is one thing BUT vendors MUST also be SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE in equipping these NEWBIES with the NECESSARY skills to protect themselves and others (i.e. do NOT forget that a zombied system puts others around the world at risk). Otherwise what is the point of using Linux? Why NOT we just live with our regular diet of mydoom.a, mydoom.b mydoom.g, klez, sobig, melissa, chernobyl?

There is NO excuse for LAZINESS and STUPIDITY. The selfishness and sloppiness of one often entails a price paid (both monetary as well as effort at rectification of damaged systems) by other users (corporate or home irrespective). LAZINESS, INCOMPETENCE & SELFISHNESS are BUT the foundations of a DISASTER waiting to happen. Left, right and center, very soon if people are to carry on with this kind of attitude, we will soon be the BREAKFAST, LUNCH, DINNER & SUPPER for HACKERS and CRACKERS! WHY make the job of a web hacker and cracker that MUCH EASIER?

As one migrates from a world that is infested with viriis, trojans and spyware to a world REPUTED for being SECURE & STABLE, we MUST be prepared NOT only for a change in Operating System BUT also a FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE in attitudes. Why do I have this nasty feeling that over the next year, we'll see more boxes ROOTED and OWNED....hmmm :roll:

PARADIGM SHIFT NOW!

Just me 1 X 10^-99 cents.

Well, Now that I have given everyone time to pipe in their responses.

Let me start of by saying that I certainly don't think that one should have a degree in Computer Science before they are permitted to touch a computer.

However, I do believe that you get what you pay for.

In my relation to a car, more appropriatly what I meant was is if you go to the dealer of your favorite model car and shell out 20K for a new car of course you expect things to just work. But, for those of us shopping at No Good Newtons or Russ the Rat expect to have to get under the hood.

I'm just SICK of people expecting something for nothing. Linux is not a refugee camp for Windows users looking for another version of Windows, but are too cheap to pay the expensive licensing fees.

As a previous poster stated the ease of use issue is being addressed daily by distro's like Lindows, Xandros and Lycoris and all of those distro's are commercial and cost nearly as much or more than MS Windows. The fact of the matter is ease of use means more work for the developers, more coding and therefore ease of use costs $$$$$.

It's at times like these that I am glad that not including floppy or embedded distro's there are 300+ Linux distributions. That means there is something for everybody, something to scratch everybody's itch. There are distro's such as Lindows that tailor to the new user. Then there are those distro's like Gentoo in which ease of use will never be a prime focus, however Gentoo has found a large community that likes it, therefore it is a top 5 distro. Like it or not that's what Linux is about Choice.

So, here's a clue folks if you want ease of use, are afraid to get your hands dirty, can't deal with a problem popping up here and again, afraid to read a manual, stop being such a cheap a#se click on the little globe on your taskbar log on to www dot lindows dot com and get out your credit card. Just please stop trying to turn every Tom, Dick and Harry Linux Distribution you come across into another Windows wannabe.

Now for those of us who like affordability and ease and don't mind having to do a little RTFM once in a while, hey I do too, and don't give me this BS that you shouldn't at least have to learn how to operate something before you use it. Even the simplest of devices like a coffee maker has a users manual.

>Technology exists to serve us.

We have been through this already, this argument is unfounded, it is without merit and I dismiss it. A machine has no brain, therefore it serves nothing. It is in fact, the combination (combination is the key word here) of the knowledge (or stupidity) and effort applied by both (both another key word) the developer and the user, working through the device that determines what purpose is served and to what extent it is served.

>It is your kind of arrogant techno-geek attitude that gives Linux a bad name and prevents it from becoming a major OS.

This assumption that "only distro's that chase after Windows are worthy of existence and all these so-called "techno-geek" ones should just get out of the way, because they are keeping linux from major deployment" is wrong, Linux isn't about that.

Moreover, what gives Linux a bad name is experienced members that insist on indocrinating NooBs with no prior Linux experience on Distro's that are still in beta, still under heavy development, and not (at least not yet) ready for the prime-time no prior experience user like Mepis.

It still has no boot-splash, yet this has become practically a prerequisite for any distro going for the NooB crowd.

Half the items in the KMenu have no icons, yet it ships like this out of the box, this looks extremely unprofessional.

The fonts look fuzzy at high resolutions and the desktop lacks gloss.

I still can't get a usb device to mount unless I'm logged in as root.

The resolution setting on KXconfig still automaticaly reverts to 640x480. Unfortunatly the monitor and keyboard settings in the Mepis tools also appear to be tied to Kxconfig, so if you adjust one of those, without opening Kxconfig and resetting your resolution it reverts back to 640x480.

I still can't get 3D acceleration with one of my systems, because DRI doesn't work with the Nvidia drivers installed, unfortunatly this same problem effects mesa, Utahglx and the AtiGLX, so unless you want to dissect Xfree and rebuild it from scratch, only those privelleged enough to own a Nvidia card can get 3D accell.

I still can't get kernel 2.6 to boot in Mepis, though I have already acomplished this feat in other distro's.

The other day I do apt-get update which inadvertantly starts installing kde 3.2 and ended up with all the problems so many others have (yes, I did the test first and it went through), how kde 3.2 made it out of experimental when it is still broken is beyond me (yes, I know it's a Debian problem) but a NooB won't. Finally got that fixed and it says my system is fully upgraded. Now over half the Kmenu items are completely missing and Kapp finder won't locate them, so they all have to be entered by hand, moreover what's worse is every single entry in the Control Center (except Kxconfig and K3B setup is completely missing, just empty tags.

Yet, I have stuck with Mepis not because I think it's the best, but because I believe it has the potential (probably more than any of the other 300 distro's out there) to become the best damn little Linux distro ever.

---------------------------------------------------
Registered Linux User #341789
Live from Okazaki, Japan

Stand Up and Be Counted Faithful Linux User
http://counter.li.org

First off I would like to say that the whole forum seems to have taken on a dark edge the last few days. This has been a great place to learn in my opinion. It use to be that you could state your dreams in this forum without fear of the normal??critics you find in other forums. It appears those days are gone. I guess it is a necessary evil of increasing popularity..........

Unfortunately it??appears that people can't help but vent their personal philosophies in the forums. Many times it seems to happen without people really thinking through what they are saying.

Normally I wouldn't bother to reply but the last post gives me no choice. I have a really hard time when people generalize.

1. It is ridiculus to continue to bash Windows users. They are MS users because that is??all??that has been presented to them, not because they made a choice. When I got my job, they had Windows. When I ordered??my first home PC, it had Windows. The average person was not aware that there were any other choices. I??wish some Linux people would let the whole thing drop. If you want to be pissed at Bill Gates, fine, but??don't take it out on me.????

2.??I think if you give Win converts a stable environement to start from, they will start to learn the OS and even spend some time at the command line! In my experience, many distros struggle to get you to that stable base. I have had to spend a lot of time jumping back and forth from Linux to XP because of that very reason. I know that Mepis is growing in popularity because it is one of the VERY FEW distros that give you a stable platform to start with. I have went more than two weeks without going into XP because of Mepis and I am nothing but a regular Windows user.

3. I have to say that the remark about being too cheap to buy the licenses has to be the most offensive remark you made. I have a NFP organization, "No Computer Left Behind, Inc." that is refurbishing old computers for needy kids. You would be shocked to know how many families still cannot afford to own a PC let alone spend hundreds or thousands of dollars in software licenses. My organization is the main reason I have been exploring Linux for the last several months. Linux has the opportunity to change the lives of MILLIONS of children. I am busting my butt to overcome the Linux learning curve to make this happen. I think I will use Mepis to be a large part of my organization and will plan to support Warren any way I can.

The bottom line is let's get past this whole Windows/Linux thing in the forum and get back to supporting people. This attitude turns the average Joe off to the Linux community. In the end, this is Warren's baby and he will nurture and grow it to suite his vision. As you said before, there are over 300 distros available. Go where your heart takes you!

shinwise bro, chill out a little bit
I think most of us that d/l'ed MEPIS and install it on our PCs knows that MEPIS doesn't carry the pricetag of Windows, Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris,ELX,etc. And I definitly think that all of us here knows that this warren's baby is a work in progress.

So, if we say that 'something doesn't work correctly' or 'i think it's better if?? bla bla', we don't mean it as a complain.?? It's meant as feedback, our small contribution to MEPIS so that it can be improved.

I, myself , am a software developer(not that I dare compare myself to warren ) and I feel glad if someone can point me where my program goes wrong. Designing and coding?? a good system is hard, but not remotely as hard as testing it, making sure that the product is working correctly under all required condition.

Open Source movement can get this far because there's always someone that gives feedback and some other to make correction and improvement. If we loose one of these.... well, if we do, I think Old Bill won't need SCO anymore

First of all, I think its great what you are doing.

"MS" = Any flame I have to say about this OS, has to do with the OS itself (lack of security, lack of stability, price, licensing,ect.) I certainly don't mean anything offensive about prior users, heck I was a prior Windows user myself, most of us were or still are.

>Some people can't afford the expensive licensing fees of Windows, Lindows, ect.

Hey, neither can I, That's why the latest copy of Windows i have laying around the house is Windows98, 'cause I cannot/willnot pay for Windows XP.

What I am saying is not a flame against Windows and It certainly is not one against Mepis. What I am saying is simply the fact, the way it is. If you want something that does everything for you it costs $$$, if you want affordability, it requires that you at least try to do a little bit of the work.

I know I'm going overboard and getting worked up over a small matter and I apologize if I offended anyone, I certainly didn't mean to. I just get tierd of hearing this same bs on every single Linux forum out there, this assumption that Linux isn't ready for the prime time, because it doesn't do exactly what I think it ought to do. That's crap.

>The bottom line is let's get past this whole Windows/Linux thing and get back to supporting people.

Well I certainly hope we can put this thread to a rest and get back to what is important, because frankly it is getting way off course and wasting precious resources from all the work that remains to be done.

... Is when people try to compare a car or a computer to something like a fridge or a telephone.?? It is ridiculous to compare something with a complicated interface to something as simple as a fridge.?? A computer is an extremely complex device, even more so then a car.?? The reason we are trained to use a car is because not only is it complex, but it is dangerous for someone without training to use.??

Tell me, how many things can you do with a phone??? With a fridge??? With a blowdryer??? With a plugin?

Now... think of the vast amount of things you can do with a computer... notice the difference??? And frankly.. the way things are going, maybe we should start having a manditory requirement for training.?? Why??? Well, to answer that, let me tell you about my roommates.?? They are both rather ignorant of how to use things on a computer and when they want something like a screensaver or a wallpaper, they aren't aware of all the different things that can happen, like getting a virus or spyware.?? They might be aware of what a virus is, but that doesn't mean they know enough to avoid a site that talks about "100% free wallpaperz dude" that happens to have gator software in the install file.?? This has actually happened to both of them.?? As computers do more and more things for us, the likelyhood of someone being able to easily steal credit card numbers and personal information increases dramatically.?? To this end, computers may very well become as dangerous to operate as a car.

-Locri

Your argument is simply weak. The originator of this thread suggested that certain systems are not ready for the average user. Maybe, maybe not.
The point, however - which your post seems to strengthen - is that the average use who uses her system for word processing, image processing, e-mail and internet needs a system that is easy to use and can keep her safe. On the other hand, experts such as yourself, would have a hacker's system giving them maximum freedom, and keeping them busy enough to prevent them from coming up with silly mandatory training schemes.

For one, I was replying to someone farther down in the thread who said something along the lines of:?? Why should we have to have some knowledge of computers in order to use them??? Do you have to have knowledge of a fridge, telephone, etc?

And the reality of things is that computers are far more difficult then the things he listed.

Yes, the average user might only want to use it for word processing, image processing, email, etc... look back to the story about my roommates.?? That is all they really use a computer for.?? However when they decided they want some decoration for their computer or a screensaver, they end up getting tons of spyware that makes their computer unstable and unsafe.?? This only happens because they don't know any better, after I spent some time explaining certain things for them and what to look out for, things have been somewhat better and they've occastionally asked me if a certain site is good or if I know a site that would be good.

I do not consider myself an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I realize that people who have no experience with computers can do irrepairable damage without even realizing it.

Keep in mind I was replying to someone else, not to the original poster.?? I was going to quote, but Mozilla does some wacky crap with a "rich text editing" box and doesn't allow you to copy/paste with it for some silly reason that I haven't bothered to fix (as I don't really WANT the editing box anyway, I would rather get rid of it).

Does that make more sense?

-Locri

It's easier to try and make the system foolproof than it is to train the average user. That your roommates got into trouble is not their fault, it's the system's.
And I think the comparison to other technology is valid. If a computer is more complex than a stove, then the user interface should be more protective. Your roommates can recognize the dangers of a stove, but don't realize the risk of downloading. What does that tell you?