Request For Community Feedback: Panel Apps

dunno, but its a corking idea, and i've just shamelessly nicked it, cheers joe,
just got half my taskbar back again

This topic has shown a huge difference in how people set up and use their desktops (and so why the flexibility we have is so useful).

I detect two alternative approaches:
1. Single desktop ("multiple desktops are useless") + Show Desktop is very important.

2. Multiple Desktops are very important (have 4 not 2) + "Show Desktop is useless".

I'm firmly in camp #2 (I believe multiple desktops are one of the best features of Linux). But perhaps Show Desktop v. switching to a different desktop are just different methods of achieving the same result.

If you keep one of your desktops empty, then switching to it provides the same function as "Show Desktop". And you much more flexibility in addition. So the "Show Desktop" button truly is useless.

So in conclusion, I recommend that "Show Desktop" should be banned and everyone be forced to have 4 Multiple Desktops. For their own good! (Anyone who disagrees must be an ex-Windows reactionary).

I probably am an ex-Windows reactionary, I have problems using multiple desktops, I cannot live without Show Desktop (I use a shortcut).

Why? If I have 20 windows opened and need to access the links on desktop (file saved, links to programs) and I switch desktops to open the program, the program will open in the new desktop, this way I will end up pretty soon with windows opened on all virtual desktops which will negate the benefit of switching the desktop -- In 30 minutes I will not have a clean desktop where I can access my icons.

With Show Desktop is easy: click Show Desktop (or use shortcut) and then select the file I want to open then I click on taskbar to open the window I need.

I'd use Multiple Desktops only for different categories of tasks, for example:
Desktop 1 for work stuff
Desktop 2 for games
Desktop 3 for forums
Desktop 4 for programming

If I have to switch desktops everytime I need to access a link that is placed on desktop I will end up messing my order.

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I can't add much to all of this. I add icons for everything I want on the desktop and don't use the bar much at all, I have it automatically hide immediately after the mouse leaves it. As many people have suggested:

No more *(##(@#*( fish!
No more &$*(##* weather!

Otherwise you can leave it the way it is. When I boot the live CD for something I hate having to remove the fish and weather. I am often on an older PC (Windows) trying to rescue some data, and every little bit that I can turn off makes the system run just a little faster.

I only have 3.3-1 right now, so this might be irrelevant, but based on what I know:

YES: synaptic, konsole, firefox, K-info center, kde system guard

NO: show desktop, kontact, SMB share browser, superuser file manager, home

DON'T KNOW BUT GUESS YES: Mepis OS center

(Actually, I don't know synaptic, but everyone here seems to use it so I am trying to get it too.)

feheeszeno

Keep it the same,but remove fish & kweather.I love how the quick launcher set up

This interview with Kevin Carmony (Linspire CEO) is interesting and relevant to this discussion.

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4429877679.html

here is a quote from it:

In most businesses the users aren't geeks and management won't spend money on training. In this situation, defaulting to one desktop is a good idea. Those who are geeky enough to like multiple desktops should also be geeky enough to set it up on their own.

Defaulting to one desktop would also help to set Mepis apart from other linuxes, rather than looking like just another generic KDE distro.

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Bob L Hunter
bicycle tourist, bookworm, linux newbie
---------------------------------------

Yes, it's created on KDE with the "quick browser" button. What we're talking about here is how to clean up or unclutter the taskbar while still having good access to the most commonly used apps. This is a very good way to accomplish it. Yet no distribution seems to come configured this way out of the box.,

I'm not sure if I'd like to have idiots using Mepis, if Linuspire goes for that market segment it's their business.

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It is always good to remember that the things we take for granted are not self-evident to others. Most people are confused and intimidated by computers. I don't think it is fair to call them idiots.

If Mepis (and linux in general) is to make inroads in the business market, then little things like this are important. The IT department doesn't want to spend all day explaining multiple desktops to a bunch of employees that will never need that function anyway.

I am glad to see that Warren is exploring this (simplifying and/or organizing the panel) because that tells us he is thinking about how to make Mepis more useful. That is a good thing.

That's called dumbing down the OS (removing a button because people are too stupid to figure what they are for) and I'm against it. I would use and promote GNOME if I would follow that philosophy.

I'm sorry in my book people that get confused by desktop switcher should use Lindows. There's a distro for everyone, I just hope Mepis will not try to be the lower common denominator.

I can understand Mepis Co. interest is to sell Mepis to as many people as possible, I am just not sure if that's my interest too...

Sorry... end rant here.
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i think its more a question of style than dumbing down, and it seems there's 2 major styles that people use in kde, multiple desktops or show desktop and they'll never agree.
i don't care either way on this issue, i only care about things that look bad (kweather error if you're not on dhcp) and waste (kaquarium, why not have xeyes too etc etc) just because i'm not big on fluff and it doesn't add any functionality.
i don't use multiple desktops (i've got 2 dual head machines on a dual switcher box, and thats confusing enough for me), but i don't have a problem with it being there, it might make someone who is unaware of it have a look and decide they like it....

I don't really use multiple desktops, but indeed it's good to have it there to make people aware that there is that option available.

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I am guessing that "Small icon" means the "Quick Launcher" applet?

In any case, I personally think either get rid of the Quick Launcher entirely or get rid of all "big" icons entirely. One or the other, not both. I think it is rather confusing to have this quick launcher thing *AND* have all these "big icon" launcher buttons. Thus, for me, one of the first things I do on a new MEPIS install is remove the quick launcher entirely.

I mean, why have both??

With that point made, I personally prefer to see the following apps:

1) Firefox
2) Thunderbird
3) Terminal (konsole)
4) "Home" directory

And maybe

5) Control Center
6) Gvim

Everything else I put on the panel is so specific to my uses that I can't imagine anyone else would care.

I also think that the web browser icon should be the actual Firefox icon, but that doesn't matter too much. I also realize that T-bird is not a default MEPIS package -- I think this should change. (Or has it changed? I don't remember if Tbird is part of MEPIS 3.4)

I really think that, on the whole, the Menus in Kmenu are set up pretty sensibly by the MEPIS crew (I guess that means just Warren?). Why put Synaptic or MEPIS OS Center as an icon on the panel at all?

And finally, I find the following applets and SysTray docked apps quite useful:

SysTray:
Kmix
Gaim
Amarok
Akregator

Applets or "special buttons":
Desktop Previewer and Pager (but four desktops, not two)
Dictionary (I use this all the time!)
Window list
Clock/Calendar
Kmenu

bye!

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JDS

This is not "dumbing down" the same way Gnome has "dumbed down" their desktop. At least the option still *EXISTS*! In Gnome, a lot of the dumbing down has meant actually removing "advanced" options altogether!! Which is why I no longer use Gnome.

Look at it this way:

Most if not all of the people that posted here have tweaked the MEPIS layout once it was installed. Removing the "multiple desktops" thing may actually make it easier to customize your desktop to your liking, by having one less MEPIS default thing that you have to tweak. And if you are going to tweak it anyways, what difference does it make if it is there or not?

In fact, I vote that ALL of the stuff get removed and we just have a very well organized Kmenu! Remove *EVERYTHING* from the panel -- no desktop pager, no icons, no applets, nothing. (well, maybe keep just the clock and the systray).

Everyone is going to tweak the thing to their liking anyway! Focus all effort on making the KMenu as well orgianized as possible, and clean the "panel" to the bone.

later...

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JDS

Well said. That is pretty much what I was trying to get at. Clean and simple are good things. The pager and quick launcher are just clutter that create a busy and confusing interface.

no desktop pager, no icons, no applets. Keep the clock!!!???
Maybe people will get confused by the time...

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AdrianTM and bohu, if we develop a minimalist desktop that's trimmed to the bone then I have another suggestion. I kinda like some things on the desktop and various taskbars but I can tweak it/them to do so.

So my suggestion is, if we make things real bare, such as fluxbox provides, then I would recommend some way of consolidating the KDE tools that allow you to add things back. There have been threads on the forum along the line of, "My taskbar disappeared! How do I get it back?", or "How do I add (this)?", or "How do I delete (that)?". I like KDE a lot, but knowing whether to left/right-click on the desktop/taskbar/"K"/pager/quicklauncher and choose configure/add/remove can be a bit confusing don't ya think?

So perhaps a menu item under "K", System, Settings (that's already there) and enhance it or make a "shortcut" of some sort to get there would be helpful. There is a "Desktop Settings Wizard", but it doesn't allow all of the add/modify/delete tweaks of all the different configuration tools. Then perhaps it would be possible to provide a single-click choice for "minimalist", "typical", "custom", "save options" like the "Save View Profile" of Konqueror.

Jon

left hand side;
Home (konqueror)
Firefox
Open office writer
Gimp
Kaffene
Gaim

Right hand side
3ddesk icon
Kmix
kate
Konsole

Where i work we use mepis on machines for first time computer users part of http://www.ufi.com/ukol/ i must have seen 100+ people approach the mepis desktop for the first time, for some it was the first time they had sat at a computer.

I have to agree with the above statement. I have seen _many_ people ask for help on that issue, however people in my experience are _not_ confused by http://desk3d.sourceforge.net/screenshots.php as it makes visual sense as to what is happening, could therefore 3ddesk be included?

We also give away free machines running mepis
What we do is create a link to firefox on the desktop labelled 'start here' and set this page as the (locally saved) homepage;
http://www.bristolwireless.net/wiki/index.php/OfflineHelp

No to Fish.

No to Weather.

I like 3ddesk as well, it's a cool effect and makes the whole desktop thing more intuitive. Unfortunately, it requires DRI, which can be hard enough to get working once you've installed Mepis, much less having it on a liveCD. Another tool to consider is kompose, which is not quite as cool or intuitive as 3ddesk but still helpful in making sense of multiple desktops.

I don't think I used the pager for about the first year I used Linux. I kept thinking, "why would I ever use that?". Now I regularly have 4 desktops nearly full, especially in the middle of a project. It's a feature that grows on you; it's also a feature I don't think I'd ever use on a LiveCD, and I generally remove it when setting up a desktop for my wife or kids.

That said, it's good to keep in mind that Windows Vista will reportedly feature virtual desktops, so I wonder if people will be less apprehensive about this feature after M$ has "invented" it.

But in the vein of what I said before about having separate setups for each user, maybe the question should be asked whether the liveCD desktop should be identical to the default installed desktop? Once again, the user who has installed Mepis has a somewhat different set of needs and intentions from the one who is using the liveCD. Why try to cram all of these different needs into one uniform desktop/panel setup when it is trivial to accomodate different needs?

As a brand new user (I tried the Live CD for a few days and finally hit Install yesterday) the only thing I'd change is in the weather report, where temperatures can't be shown in centigrade (at least if they can I haven't worked it out yet).

I've been teaching PC users Windoze skills for years and now I realize what they've all been missing.

WW

Are you sure you're ready for this?
1. Get into the KDE Control Center (through quicklaunch or K Menu ->
Control Center, for example).
2. Expand Regional & Accessibility, select Country/Region & Language
and observe that the Locale tab is open. Now you have at least
two choices:
a. Open the Country list and select your country. This will change
KDE's time, date, number, currency and measures conventions to
those of your country.
b. Select the Other tab and use the Measure System list to select
Metric. This will change only the system of measures.
3. Wait a while for Kweather to see what you have done. I don't know
how long a while is. It seems to be usually less than ten minutes
but it may depend on whether you have an active internet
connection.

If you have never studied computer science this arrangement may seem
at least bizarre, if not utterly insane. IMHO it is an absolutely
admirable instance of The Principle of Localization of Function. All
this locale info is in one place in a standardized format. Any
program running on KDE can get it there and no program (except of
course Control Center) need concern itself with getting this info
from a user. But what is even more important is that all the
programs running for a particular user at the same time have access
to the same information. There will be no instances of one program
acting as if it were in Chile while another seems to be in Austria.

[rant]Don't you dare lay your hands on my Kweather or Sherman's Lagoon!

If you live in a climate where you can wear exactly the same clothing every day (despite the smell, apparently), or you are unwilling to learn to configure Kweather for your locale, then you can learn to delete it yourself!

And if you don't value humor in your life or see the humor in Sherman's Lagoon then delete it yourself. Don't play Dog in the Manger with the rest of us! [/rant]

For those of us who install MEPIS to hard drive I think this question should be largely moot. One of the joys of MEPIS is the ease of making it what you want it to be. Over the years I have seen a number of changes in the default configuration and I have learned something of value from each of them.

I do have some sympathy for people who use MEPIS live, especially on older hardware. Almost as long as there have been computers, one man's feature has been another's frivolity. That's part of why I think that trying to make one distro fit all users is futile. Maybe if someone were to post instructions on how to create a customized live CD these people could remove what bothers them and still run live. But of course they should not expect support for their customized versions.

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Guard your ignorance well, my boy. You'll never find anything to replace it.
---J. J. Sinn

It works like you say. But only temporarily in 6.0 testversions. Upon a reboot everything is back to the default US-settings. It's a REAL Mepis bug, since I don't have this bug in K/X/Ubuntu beta1. And Warren is aware of it too......

The bug has not been fixed yet in the brand-new Mepis beta1 that was released this morning on the ftp-server

Regards, Ko

I'd like to see kteatime instead of the fish.
There is a place for something frivolous, or just different, and kteatime is also vaguely useful

I'd really like Kwikdisk there somewhere. I have 16 partitions, and when I go looking for stuff it helps a lot.

Kwikdisk is there, on the panel, in beta1

Regards, Ko

I know it's there. Thanks. I just want it to stay there, where it belongs.

Buster

I've been using 3.?.

I use MEPIS in different ways. It would be nice to have an easy built-in way to automatically generate customized Live CD menus by using a multiple choice type interface.

For kiosks, I only want one desktop, 3 icons and no other options or menus. Also replace background with a blue wave.

2 icons point to OpenOffice for text and spreadsheets (replaced with a stylized 'W' and a stylized 'X' if you know what I mean), the other points to a KDE kiosk severly restricted web browser (replaced icon with a stylized 'e').

At home, sometimes I use a console, Lynx, Putty, midnight commander, a Perl IDE, and as many alternate desktops as allowed.

When I use a GUI, I use a web browser, I don't really care which one, usually Firefox or Konquerer, Putty, a console box, a Perl IDE, and as many alternate desktops as allowed. But I really like simple GUI system setup. Whatever saves time.

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Sorry for ranting, but:

We tested the kiosk setup above for about a month in a hotel while we did a survey. 100% of the users reported that they liked the simple interface, and no one knew they had been using Linux.

Previously, in the same hotel we did a survey and about 99% of the people surveyed said that they would not be able to use a Linux based kiosk because it would be too difficult to use.

The GUI was created to make computing easier and more productive for non-technical users.